The conversation surrounding martial arts and the value of ranks, particularly black belts, has sparked renewed debate following comments made by Joe Rogan on his popular podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience. During an episode featuring comedian Greg Fitzsimmons, Rogan delved into the topic of martial arts ranks for children, specifically questioning the authenticity and value of junior black belts. His remarks, however, did not sit well with everyone, igniting controversy among listeners and practitioners alike.

Rogan expressed skepticism over the weight that a child’s black belt carries compared to one earned by an adult. “It’s just not the same thing,” he argued, suggesting that awarding a black belt to a young child might dilute the meaning of the rank. His comments came in response to a story shared by a father, proud of his child’s taekwondo achievement. Rogan’s critical tone, however, drew ire from some listeners who felt that he was dismissive of the effort and personal growth involved in earning such a rank.

Greg Fitzsimmons: “My son, he was having trouble when he was in— I can’t remember— preschool. He was biting kids, he was like crazy. And so the teacher said, ‘There’s this place called Marina Taekwondo in Venice, great program for kids.’ So he started in preschool and he went all the way through eighth grade. He got his black belt, his junior black belt, and it changed him. It completely changed him. He became disciplined. It calmed him down. He used to go like three or four days a week.

Yeah, I know it sounds crazy, but I think it’s essential for kids to do something physical. It really helps if they do something challenging, like a martial art. It’s just good for developing your brain and your ability to do difficult things. When he got his black belt, he had to do— you know— certain, what do they call them? Katas? Is that the word? Depends, katas is a Japanese term. Yeah, I think he did katas, and then he had to break some boards and do a few other things. And then, he had to fight two black belts, like at the same time. He had to go three rounds with them. They really pushed him hard.

And Mr. Jones, Keith Jones— shout out— it was tough. My son came out of there crying. But Mr. Jones sat him down and said, ‘You’re going to get back in there, and you’re going to finish this.’ And my son did. He wiped his tears, went back in, and he finished it. And then he got his black belt. It was incredible, yeah.”

Joe Rogan: “How old was he?”

Greg Fitzsimmons: “We started in kindergarten, so this would have been in, like, sixth or seventh grade.”

Joe Rogan: “It’s kind of crazy to give a kid a black belt. Yeah. Little kids, yeah. Because it’s not real. Different schools have different requirements and different belief systems when it comes to that. But somewhere along the line, that’s where the term ‘McDojo’ comes from. Somewhere along the line, they developed these strip mall karate places—”

Greg Fitzsimmons: “It was in a strip mall.”

Joe Rogan: “—that would graduate children all the way up to black belt. And they made it really easy, where you didn’t have to spar. They started doing a bunch of stuff to make it less realistic, but with less attrition, so fewer people would quit, and they could make more money.

Some of these schools with hundreds and hundreds of students, they’d be making bank. There was this place called Fred Valaris when I was living in Boston. Fred Valaris was a karate chain. They were all over the place. But the people that came out of there, if they had to fight, maybe some of them would be good, but it’s not the best place to learn. It’s a big dojo, yeah. They taught you karate, but you’ve got to do it in a real place. You’ve got to do it in a serious place with real challenges. That’s the only way you’re going to get good at it. You’ve got to go to a real place where there are tough people, and they’re sweating and kicking the bag. That’s where you’ve got to go.

But I do think there’s something valuable in giving a kid a goal, like earning a blue belt or a red belt. A junior black belt isn’t a bad thing to call it, as long as you’re clear that it’s a junior black belt. It’s like saying you’re not an adult yet; you don’t really have the ability to hurt people. Most people don’t really have that ability until they’re like 15, 16, or 17. Then you can really hurt people. And it happens quickly. You go from being a boy, right? When you’re 12 years old, you’re still a boy.”

Video by Mcdojolife:

Rogan buried Greg’s son’s Taekwondo junior black belt 😭
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